Episode 206: Tackling Environmental Inequality across Academic Disciplines

Video still by Michael Rossi

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On This Episode

Such environmental changes as pollution and climate change affect not only our ecosystem but also our people—those in low-income communities most of all. In this episode, our hosts talk to two recent Radcliffe Engaged Student Grant awardees from different disciplines—healthcare policy and the law—both of whom used the funds to study environmental inequality.

This episode was recorded on November 30, 2023.
Released on April 4, 2024.

Guests

Seth Gertz-Billingsley is a Harvard Law School student who was awarded a Radcliffe Engaged Student Grant to study air-conditioning and tenants’ rights.

Sonya Gupta is pursuing a master’s degree in regional studies—Russia, Eastern Europe, and Central Asia—at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies and was awarded a Radcliffe Engaged Student Grant to fund her project GeoAdvocates (formerly Mapping Chicago).

Credits

Ivelisse Estrada is your cohost and the editorial manager at Harvard Radcliffe Institute (HRI), where she edits Radcliffe Magazine.

Alan Catello Grazioso is the executive producer of BornCurious and the senior multimedia manager at HRI.

Jeff Hayash is a freelance sound engineer and recordist.

Marcus Knoke is a multimedia intern at HRI, a Harvard College student, and the general manager of Harvard Radio Broadcasting.

Heather Min is your cohost and the senior manager of digital strategy at HRI.

Anna Soong is the production assistant at HRI.

Special thanks to Cabin 3 Media for their invaluable contributions to the editing of this podcast episode.

Transcript

Heather Min:
Hello. Welcome back to BornCurious, coming to you from Harvard Radcliffe Institute, one of the world’s leading centers for interdisciplinary exploration. I am your cohost, Heather Min.

Ivelisse Estrada:
And I’m your cohost, Ivelisse Estrada.

Heather Min:
This podcast is, like its home, about unbounded curiosity.

Ivelisse Estrada:
On today’s episode, we’re excited to have an opportunity to talk with two inspiring students about the work they’re doing to address the disproportionate impact of climate change on the communities and ecosystems that are most vulnerable to its effects. We thought we might all find it encouraging to hear from these students. They’re both studying at Harvard, but each is approaching issues around climate change from vastly different perspectives. And that, of course, is one of the Radcliffe Institute’s defining approaches: drawing insight and experience from across disciplines to find solutions to some of the world’s most challenging issues.

Heather Min:
Today, we are speaking with Radcliffe Engaged student research grant recipients Sonya Gupta and Seth Gertz-Billingsley to learn about their individual projects. Sonya is a graduate student in regional studies at the Davis Center at Harvard, and Seth is a student at Harvard Law School engaged with environmental advocacy and public policy.

Ivelisse Estrada:
The Radcliffe Engaged Student Grant Program provides stipends to Harvard undergraduate and graduate students to support their research, creative, and service work on topics related to the institute’s focus areas.

Heather Min:
Welcome, Seth and Sonya.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Thank you so much for having us.

Sonya Gupta:
It’s an honor to be here today.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Great. Why don’t we start with each of you telling us a little bit about your graduate work?

Sonya Gupta:
My name is Sonya, and I’m currently getting my regional studies degree focusing on Russia, Eastern Europe, and Central Asia at the Davis Center. Specifically in my program, I’m specializing in medicine and public health, and my thesis investigates refugee health. With the current Ukrainian refugee crisis in the EU, I’m trying to better understand why there’s low healthcare utilization and, especially when it comes to chronic diseases in conflict settings, how we can better support refugees and other displaced populations to ensure that they have access to medical care.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Thank you.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
That’s super cool, by the way. My name is Seth. I’m a second year student, Harvard Law School. My focus so far has been into environmental natural resources law. Growing up, I worked on a ranch and rehabilitated birds of prey, and so I spent a lot of time outside. I really enjoyed that, and when I came to law school I wanted to continue that in some way. I was looking at using property law, specifically the warranty of habitability, which is a blend of contract and property that essentially reads particular rights for tenants into a lease. I was curious to see whether or not this warranty, which is essentially a cost allocation method, could provide remedies for tenants facing increasing temperatures due to climate change, who might not be able to afford cooling or other technologies to make their apartments safe.

Ivelisse Estrada:
I want to turn to Sonya. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about the Radcliffe Engaged grant and how you got interested in it, and how it relates to your field of study?

Sonya Gupta:
When I was an undergrad in Chicago during the COVID-19 pandemic, there was a study that came out that said that there’s a 30-year life expectancy gap between neighborhoods in Chicago that are just a few miles apart. 30 years.

Ivelisse Estrada:
That’s shocking to me.

Sonya Gupta:
Over a generation, that is absolutely crazy. Combine that with the already entrenched systemic inequalities that we have in Chicago, and it seems like this perpetuating cycle where individuals who are in low-income communities or on the lower end of that life expectancy gap are seemingly striving towards this really far away goal to be on the same playing field as others. At that time, I was working in a congressional office as an intern, and I started seeing also how a lot of constituents were struggling with accessing healthcare resources. I started to think, Why is this? I wasn’t taught about this in my pre-med studies in undergrad, and I wanted to know more.

I reached out to one of my professors and my health policy professor, and we started this small project where we’re going to investigate Chicago’s medical deserts. He introduced me to this tool called GIS, GIS stands for geographic information systems. What it does is that you can take variables and look at it on a spatial field. Typically, it’s used in urban planning, defense contexts, but I had never encountered this program before.

Heather Min:
It’s a computer program? It’s software?

Sonya Gupta:
It is software.

Heather Min:
Okay.

Sonya Gupta:
It was this very interesting process of trying to self-teach this program. But at the end of this learning process, I put together this project that I’m very proud of, that identified Chicago’s medical deserts both pre– and during the COVID-19 pandemic, and there was a lot of overlap. Communities that had high pollution rates due to former factories being there or just other historical factors that led to high pollution rates had high asthma rates, which also had high COVID-19 mortality rates, low COVID-19 vaccination rates in some of those communities due to access.

We created a workshop series—back then it was called Mapping Chicago because it was based on Chicago data—where we first taught about Chicago’s health disparities and tried to place it on that geospatial plane. How do environmental structural factors, socioeconomic factors impact health disparities? It just snowballed from there, and we expanded to community organizations, as well. We taught it at my university’s police department. It was just an amazing experience, and I knew that I wanted to keep working on this in grad school.

Before coming to Harvard, I actually always wanted to work with the Harvard Radcliffe Institute. Just the focus on interdisciplinary study and getting to see some of the amazing things that they’ve done on the web. And while talking to someone here, I realized that the Radcliffe Engaged student grant was a great opportunity to expand this project, and also receive the mentorship and support of the Radcliffe Institute to create it into what it is now. And then with the student research grant, I was able to expand my project from Chicago to Boston. We rebranded as GeoAdvocates, which is what we’re called now. Now we’re creating a massive open online course to really make sure that after this academic year, that individuals around the world would be able to use it.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Sonya.

Sonya Gupta:
Yes.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Where do you find the time? I can barely find time to do my laundry.

Heather Min:
You go to school too, right? Classes? Whatever, thesis.

Sonya Gupta:
You’re so kind. A lot of time management. I live by my Google Calendar. But also, I think if it’s something that you genuinely enjoy—I absolutely love doing it. To me, it doesn’t seem like work. I can just find myself working on it or thinking of ideas just walking from class to class, or while I’m eating dinner with a friend. I really feel like if it’s something you love, it doesn’t seem like work. It doesn’t seem like it’s taking time out of your day. It just sort of integrates itself into your everyday life.

Heather Min:
Which is why it’s so exciting to hear your excitement and learn about this project. If we can shift back to Seth, can you talk about why you even thought to look into warranties of habitability? Why did it matter for you?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
I grew up outside of Fort Worth, where it’s really hot in the summer. We always had air-conditioning, so it was fine. And then I came up here, and everyone warned me about the brutal Boston winter, and it’s always going to be so cold. It was not so cold. Our apartment didn’t have AC, and you could rent one, it was really expensive. I just wondered what would it look like for somebody to make the argument that if my apartment is really, really hot—so hot that it’s dangerous for me to be there—is that a habitability concern? Would I have any standing to try and make that claim?

Heather Min:
This is a new thing that’s emerged with the fact that Boston’s been hotter than ever, as well as the rest of the country and the planet?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
The severity of the heat right now depends on a lot of factors, most notably geography. And India, I think, is a great example of that. Because it’s not just the heat, but it’s also these social factors. You have these very low-income families crammed into these tiny apartments—nine people sleeping in one apartment, intermittent access to water, intermittent access to electricity—and that just opens the door for the adverse health impacts of climate change that we’re seeing over there. It’s very sad. I’m really interested in exploring more of that international valence of this question.

But here in the United States, we’re actually starting to see this. Right before I started my project, Oregon had a heat wave, and sadly, several people died. It garnered some public attention, and the legislature passed this law that required landlords to permit tenants to install air conditioning units. Before a landlord could say, “I don’t want it on my building, it’s ugly,” or whatever. But more interestingly, the state created this program that acquired several thousand air-conditioning units and would distribute them to at-risk tenants during extreme heat events. I don’t know of any other state that has a program like that. Oregon is the first.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Right.

Heather Min:
Your student research grant project—what have you uncovered? What have you found? What do you think needs to be done?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
I wanted to look at the possibility of a model statute that could grant tenants access to air-conditioning. Every state has its own regime for the warranty of habitability and the relationship between a tenant and a landlord. And so I had to ask a lot of questions, a lot of threshold questions first. Questions like, who ideally pays for this? Ultimately it would be the taxpayers, right? If it’s the government mandating it. Unless we just tell the landlord directly to pay for it, but that shifts the costs to the tenants, and presumably low-income tenants can’t really afford to pay more rent. And so, that was an important question to wrestle with.

I just essentially took information on most states, actually every state I had something on in the United States. My first question was, does the warranty of habitability exist, and how strong is it? Most states have some form of the warranty of habitability, but every state has a different. And so I made a map, and I coded which states is this done by statute? Which states is this done by judicial action? It was a really cool project.

Ivelisse Estrada:
It sounds like Sonya’s GIS could be really helpful to you in that.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And there are some folks who are using that actually, especially when it comes to public housing. And saying, who’s most at risk here for increasing temperatures in public housing? Which is a really cool use of the software.

Sonya Gupta:
Seth, that is so cool. I would love to work with you on the GIS aspect of it. I think there’s going to be so many really cool overlaps with it. I also loved how you talked about the health impacts of climate change. I think that’s something that we’re now seeing a lot of, on both a local and a global scale. Things to consider now that we do have these impacts on the world, but also within the sphere of local communities. How are certain communities more disadvantaged when it comes to combating or dealing with the effects of climate change?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
It’s super interesting, and I would love to get involved with the GIS. That’s something that’s so outside of my skill set, it would be super cool to apply it and see it used here.

Heather Min:
With Sonya, tons of health data as well as you delved into law as well really, because it was all about access to healthcare and—

Ivelisse Estrada:
Policy, yeah.

Heather Min:
Yeah, policy. Seth, you’re coming at it from lots of written laws that allow for us to have civil society. I’m wondering, you’re younger scholars arming yourself with knowledge so that you can act. We want to hear more about climate as an issue.

Sonya Gupta:
For me, I started thinking about climate in part because of my lived experience. Growing up, winters in Chicago were very cold, and you had snow quite often, but now we’re seeing a shift in that aspect, but also in the summers, as well. It’s getting very, very hot, especially considering communities that don’t have AC, don’t have access to other resources to support them during this time. They are disproportionately affected, which can lead to some of those larger factors that impact that 30-year life expectancy gap. I think medicine needs to be integrating itself a lot more with trying to overcome the effects of climate change or understand this on both an individual patient level, but also on a community health population level as well.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
My first exposure to the impact of climate change came from working with animals and reading about the impact that this has. And not just our increase in temperatures, but the other effects that we have on our planet, like deforestation and loss of wildlife habitat. In Texas, it’s a huge state, a lot of open land, but over the years we fragmented that land. We’ve built roads and fences and things, and that really does impact our wildlife. We’ve lost something like 50 percent of our songbird population over the past few decades. That’s dramatic and very concerning.

Heather Min:
The climate crisis also requires interdisciplinary understanding as well as action, and there’s just so much variation happening right now, and therefore, data that people need to process. Seth, you’re a legal scholar. How much interdisciplinarity is there?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Different parts of the law are interdisciplinary in different ways. Climate change law is a good example of that, as it exists, because it’s predicated on your need to use data. If you’re going to say that there needs to be some sort of judicial intervention or some interpretation of a statute or a constitution in a particular way, then you will probably need to rely on data for that. Environmental law is the same.

Heather Min:
When we talk about environmental law, who are those laws supposed to protect, or who are they written on behalf of? The government?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
When we say environmental law in the United States, what we’re generally talking about is federal environmental law. Most of our federal environmental laws came out of the 1970s. They were responses to serious environmental concerns and issues that we were seeing, that were very apparent during that time. Some of the big statutes include NEPA. It’s essentially an administrative requirement that federal agencies have to consider the environmental impact of their actions. We have the Clean Water Act, which regulates emissions and pollutants entering water, and then we have the Clean Air Act, which regulates emissions into the air. Then we have a couple of other ones, CERCLA, also known as Superfund, which is about cleaning up hazardous waste sites. And then we also have RCRA, which is about disposal of toxic waste.

Heather Min:
All of those are regulatory—

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Yes.

Heather Min:
For big actors, big corporations?

Ivelisse Estrada:
It sounds like these are laws that really came from the bottom up. They were set in motion by people, rather than the government.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Yeah, no, it’s a very interesting issue. Because alongside the history of environmental law, we also have this issue of environmental justice. And environmental justice today, generally, is in reference to certain communities bearing the brunt of climate change and pollution. And so back in the ’70s there was the climate justice movement as we understand it, although it had less public attention, and then it was also the people who lived nearby these climate disasters and combined with politicians who recognized that this was a strong political moment for the climate and for pollution. And so yeah, it was this really interesting history where it evolved on multiple different fronts and culminated in these really aggressive and ultimately quite effective statutes.

Ivelisse Estrada:
How concerned are you with establishing precedence?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
This actually goes all the way back to the jurisdiction question. I think that every state is going to experience climate change differently, and different states are responding differently. Their electorate sees the crisis differently. I think that I am optimistic that the states will respond in the ways that they need to respond for their particular issues. I think it’ll be trickier to get a more national response. This is really something that legal scholars are wrestling with and discussing right now. There was this case in Montana. Montana actually, believe it or not, has part of their constitution that essentially guarantees a clean environment. It was these young people who were suing essentially, in part, because of climate change, and ultimately were successful—at least in lower courts, we’ll see what happens—because of this part of their Montana constitution, which is really cool. Montana is somewhat unique in that, and so that precedent obviously won’t be applicable outside of Montana, but it’s an example of something that can happen. And so I’m curious to see where we go from here.

Ivelisse Estrada:
You said that you’re hopeful, though.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
I am hopeful. I think that people are recognizing the impacts of climate change, even if we still have disagreements about its source. The law is reactive, and it does change over time, even if our founding documents don’t, and I think that that does give me hope.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Sonya, what about you? Do you feel hopeful? Has your research made you hopeful for what we can achieve in the future?

Sonya Gupta:
Just seeing how enthusiastic some of the workshop participants are when it comes to using GIS, using this understanding to create positive change to the world, I’m beyond hopeful. I really do think that our generation can make an impact, and I think we’re just seeing amazing strides being made by our generation to really help bring positive change about. We might not complete it in our generation, but at least we’ll make some really good strides. If the enthusiasm from the workshop is anything, and the really cool follow-up projects are anything, I do think we’ll have some hopefully amazing interdisciplinary solutions going forward.

Heather Min:
I’m curious, could you talk about some of the workshop projects? You talked about your workshop students being initially fellow college students, but then community members, the local police department. Talk about some of the projects.

Sonya Gupta:
Originally, I was looking at it in the context of, what is leading to this 30-year life expectancy gap? What are these medical deserts, what are contributing to it, and how can we better address them? These students have brought in their own interests as well. There was one that was done by a student who is very interested in the intersection of environments and community experiences. And so what she did was that she took some data sets from the EPA, put them together, aligned that with Cook County public health data sets as well, and saw the impacts that different environmental factors and variables could have had.

There are some projects that are also looking at the impacts of environment post-disaster. For example, there’s a project looking at Chernobyl—we’re well past the 30-year mark, trying to understand how different radionuclides have had an impact, not only on the environment and how it’s led to more of radiation but also on health of the population in this area, of the kids who were growing up during this time period and how this could have led to certain diseases.

There are so many really cool data sources out there. Honestly, with GIS, as long as you have some geospatial marker, you can bring that data set and realize it in a geospatial plane. There’s just so much to do, and I think there’s so much more to be doing now. It’s been very interesting to pull together data sets from different sources, and I think there are a lot of really cool sources to continue pulling data sets from.

Ivelisse Estrada:
How do you decide which source you’re going to pull from? How do you know which is a reliable source?

Sonya Gupta:
Well, first of all, look for an institution that has credibility in that sphere. For example, Cook County Department of Public Health is the Department of Public Health, so they have certain measures to assess public health in a way that we can accept as being a very credible source. I would also say census data is really useful, because it’s already on a geospatial plane, if they use zip codes or even smaller granularities to look at populations.

When it comes to other factors, if you do look at a dataset that isn’t from perhaps the most credible source, or most credible institution out there, I’d be sure to understand how they collected that data. What questions did they ask? Did they do any tests to collect and understand soil pH levels, or was it something that they just aggregated from other sources? Because especially when you put together maps, you need to be knowledgeable of what sources of data were used to create those maps.

Ivelisse Estrada:
One thing that I heard from both of you is that you’re broadening the scope of your work to an international level, hopefully?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Going international is a totally different thing. Totally different body of law, completely different claims that you’d be making, and test cases that would need to happen. And so that’s something that I’ve just recently started to explore, and I’m hoping to write a paper on just asking the question, under the international human rights framework, what claims, if any, exist? What would a test case look like, and is this something that courts would be open to considering?

Sonya Gupta:
I’m still at that point in my career where I don’t know exactly where specifically it’ll lead, but I do know I want to be doing a lot of work on both a local and a global scale. Because I think especially these issues of climate change don’t just affect local populations, they affect global populations as well. I’m specifically looking into the intersection of this topic and social medicine. Because I think to provide the best care for a patient, you need to consider a multitude of factors, like the structures that they exist in, if they live in a food desert, what policies and history have impacted this and led to the patient having these disproportionate impacts that they experience in the present day? Once again, I think this is a problem that everyone in the world will be facing, is facing, and will continue to face, and we have to work towards this together to find a solution.

Heather Min:
You’ve said social medicine, what is that?

Sonya Gupta:
Oh, that is a field of medicine, and how I like to describe social medicine is considering all of the historical, political, environmental, anthropological factors that can impact medicine, and impact your patient’s experiences and the manifestations of disease, and finding ways to address them. Because health isn’t just limited, in my opinion, and medicine isn’t just limited to the biological disease. There are social factors that led to the onset of that biological disease. We’ve seen it even in the current day: the higher rates of COVID-19 that I mentioned earlier in certain communities in Chicago has a high correlation with high asthma rates that were due to pollution. And so maybe if we have addressed that pollution issue to begin with, or addressed those asthma issues to begin with, we wouldn’t have seen the drastic impacts that we did see when it came to the disparity in COVID-19 mortality rates in Chicago.

Heather Min:
Thank you. And I guess I’m curious if you could talk about why you’ve decided to do current graduate work on refugees and the Ukrainian war?

Sonya Gupta:
For me, in undergrad, I double-majored in biology and Russian studies, and I was always interested in the intersection of medicine and these social aspects. I knew that before I started medical school, I wanted to have a better understanding of these contexts. Because I think understanding the social, environmental, political is so important to how you practice medicine and how you can change medicine for the better.

I noticed that the war started, and people were not talking about the impacts that chronic disease had on these populations and what medical impacts this would lead to. At the time, a new measure called the TP Directive, which stands for the Temporary Protection Directive, was enacted to provide Ukrainian refugees with the access to medical services, but it wasn’t being heavily utilized. I thought it would be a very amazing opportunity to combine my education to provide and hopefully work towards something that could support this patient population a little bit better and help me gain that social understanding of medicine that I could apply to my future projects and my career going forward.

Ivelisse Estrada:
As young scholars and young leaders in your field, what concerns you?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
I’m concerned that we’re losing the ability to talk to each other and do so constructively. I think that we as a country and as a world, are facing so many important challenges. But facing challenges isn’t new. We’ve always faced challenges, and we haven’t always done so well, but I think that social media has impacted our ability to sit down even across the table from our friends and have civil discussions. Especially with the law and with legislation, that requires a certain degree of civility and understanding and compromise that we’re losing.

Sonya Gupta:
I definitely agree with you there, Seth. What is also concerning to me is maybe taking time to recognize what’s going on in the world around us, all of the intricacies. There’s a lot of things going on—a lot of good, a lot of bad—but also seeing what we can do to make a difference. I’ve been seeing small pockets of this coming up, and I think when we do do it, we do a good job of it: advocating for what we believe in, making sure that when we see an injustice, we stand up against it. But I think this is something that just doesn’t end when we’re young. This is something we have to continue doing as we grow older. There are injustices in the world, but the only way that we can prevent them from occurring again is to speak up.

I think this also starts with participating in elections. I know that with the presidential elections, we do see a lot of turnout. What about the local elections? What about understanding civic education? What about understanding how the leaders that we elect now, even on a local or state level, they’ll eventually become the leaders that will go on to be at the presidential office, will go on to be at the head of all these amazing NGOs. These are things we need to consider, that these actions shouldn’t just be for big things. They should be for small things as well, and we need to engage in discussions about this.

Ivelisse Estrada:
I love the work that you’re both doing, looking outside of your own experience and looking out for the experience of others who are less fortunate. I really love that, because what I’m hearing too is that our modern world has us looking inward with social media, and we’re very concerned with our image or what our peers are doing, and what about everything outside of that? Thanks for doing that work.

Heather Min:
You guys are, like, inspiring.

Sonya Gupta:
Actually, Seth, one more question for you: how do you see medicine and law working together when it comes to this issue?

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
That is a great question. It goes back to where can we use data in law? I think that as we continue to explore the impact of rising temperatures on our bodies, that will help guide the cases that people bring, the discussions that lawmakers have. I think that health law and climate change law, as it develops, I think we’re going to see a lot of overlap there.

Sonya Gupta:
Oh, absolutely. I also think that physicians and lawyers should be working hand in hand going forward when it comes to this. I think there’s just so many cool interdisciplinary perspectives we can bring to the table with this. But also that when it comes to creating legislation, it’s important to consider what happens in the clinic. And vice versa, when it comes to the clinic, it’s important to consider what’s going on on a more legislative-slash-infrastructural scale.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Yeah, I completely agree.

Heather Min:
It’s wonderful to hear from both of you tell stories and talk about why all of this is really important. Talking about your personal inspiration for all of this work, and why you feel hopeful in face of such dire challenges that we experience. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you, and we hope that you continue to speak individually about your work, as well, because it’s inspirational.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Thank you so much for joining us today, Seth and Sonya. Really appreciate it. It’s been really interesting, especially to hear the overlap between your courses of study. So thanks—and I do hope that you’ll update us if you end up working together.

Sonya Gupta:
Absolutely.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Absolutely, yeah.

Sonya Gupta:
Thank you both for having us on today. It’s been such a pleasure to partake in this discussion, and I’m looking forward to some of the hopefully awesome collaborations Seth and I will have going forward.

Seth Gertz-Billingsley:
Yeah, absolutely. I’d love to echo that. Thank you all for your time today. Thank you for this great discussion.

Heather Min:
That concludes today’s program.

Ivelisse Estrada:
BornCurious is brought to you by Harvard Radcliffe Institute. Our producer is Alan Grazioso. Jeff Hayash is the man behind the microphone.

Heather Min:
Anna Soong and Kevin Grady provided editing and production support.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Many thanks to Jane Huber for editorial support. And we are your cohosts. I’m Ivelisse Estrada.

Heather Min:
And I’m Heather Min.

Ivelisse Estrada:
Our website, where you can listen to all our episodes, is radcliffe.harvard.edu/borncurious.

Heather Min:
If you have feedback, you can e-mail us at info@radcliffe.harvard.edu.

Ivelisse Estrada:
You can follow Harvard Radcliffe Institute on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and X. And as always, you can find BornCurious wherever you listen to podcasts.

Heather Min:
Thanks for learning with us—and join us next time.